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Undercover sting at Lake Hefner nets Piedmont resident

Jay Stout

Jay Stout, seen here celebrating his 70th birthday last year, was arrested this week on charges of lewd acts in a public place by Oklahoma City police.

By Becky Pearce

In an undercover sting at Lake Hefner in Oklahoma City, police arrested 34 people including 70-year-old Jay Stout of Piedmont, a former Piedmont city councilman.

Responding to numerous complaints of lewd activities from concerned citizens, including a father who had been sailing on the lake with his two children and reported seeing two men having sex on the road at Hobie Point, police conducted a four-day sting operation which lead to multiple arrests. Those arrested, ranging in age from 26 to 78 years old, were accused of engaging in an act of lewdness in a public place and included Stout along with three employees of the State of Oklahoma: Yanskton Jesko, 37, employed by the Oklahoma State Department of Health, Romeo Taguinod, 62, employed by the Oklahoma County Sheriff’s Office and Ernest Hall, 43, who said he was an assistant coach at Stillwater High School. The Stillwater High school denies having anyone employed by the name of Earnest Hall.  According to the Oklahoma County Sheriff’s Office, Taguinod was fired immediately after the incident.

Two of those arrested were booked on complaints of marijuana possession and one man was arrested on a felony county warrant.

For years, Hobie Point, located on the south side of Lake Hefner, has been a known meeting spot for men seeking companionship. In April of 2009, Oklahoma City police arrested 18 men during a similar four-day sting operation. Police reports at that time claim the men would drive up and meet undercover officers, then follow the officer on one of the trails, often times exposing and touching themselves. Among those arrested in the earlier sting was local Radio personality Calvin Wright of the Radio Oklahoma Network.

The public park at Hefner Lake is often used by families. Despite the recent activity at Hobie Point, police are quick to assure people the area is safe for families and other recreational activities. The police pledge to continue their proactive approach in an effort to eliminate this type of illegal activity at Lake Hefner and other points around Oklahoma City.

In all the suspects were fined more than $43,000.

Those arrested in the sting were:

Shannon Henderson, Self-employed
Yankston Jesko, Okla. State Dept. of Health
Rashaun Stubb, Okla. Heart Hospital
Michael Hall, Ally Cat Salon
Gary Hicks, Unemployed
Roberto Loera, Unemployed
Romeo Taguinod, Okla. County Sheriff’s Office
Kenneth Carmin, Retired
Jim Jones, Self-employed
Justin Ballard, Good Egg Dining
Earnest Hall, Stillwater H.S. (Coach)
Jay Stout, Retired
Ira Crutcher, McDonald’s
Frank Simmons, Retired
Timothy Haggard, Unemployed
John Gassei, Unemployed
Juan Jimenez, Castels Jewelry
Guy Powell, SW Youth & Family
Donnell Beatty, Days Inn
Lonell Marzett, Unemployed
Paul Tankersley, Nurse Finders
Daniel Walsh, Jimmy’s Egg
Robert Johnston Express Personnel
Joe Escalon, Unemployed
Todd Hand, Windsor Clothing
Jim Weber, Highmont Exploration
Michael Barton, Retired
Keith Golden, Retired
Shannon Porter, Goodwill Corp.
Ronald Burton, Sheraton Hotel
Charles Degraffenreidi, Mahogany Steak House
Samphanp Sayarath, Normand Thai Restaurant
Jimmie Disbrow, Retired
Timothy Scott, Self-employed


  1. Phil says:

    No surprise here!

  2. Old Timer says:

    What an embarrassment to Beulah Jech and the Stout name which were pioneers in Piedmont. Unfortunately, […] this is everywhere!.

  3. john says:

    Personally Mr Stout can do what he wants in his personal life, however since he did this hanus act in a public park where minors could see his display of poor judgement. Than public scrutiny is high and he deserves the reactions from the public. My beliefs is the city needs act now to rename Stout drive back to 7th street and our public school needs to re-brand our football field and not call it Stout field no more. This community does not need another black eye from poor judgement and choices from a public figure as this situation has brought unwanted attention to our community yet again.

  4. Concerned says:

    I agree. Turn Stout drive back into 7th Street and while you’re at it take the stupid Fina name off of city hall. Turn it back into Piedmont City Hall. This isn’t Finaville or Boeversville. Put a plaque up in the corner or something and call it good. This deal with naming stuff after people is nuts. It does nothing to improve the quality of life in the community. If they wanna name it something they should call it the Gooder Simpson Municipal Center. He did far more for the community then any of the Fina boys did. Plus he’s dead and that’s who you should name stuff after if you’re going to. Dead people.

    • Kate Kearby says:

      agree with you!!!

    • Kate Kearby says:

      on the name stuff after dead people. and name me a city hall named after someone? if Stout drive and field is named after dead people let it stand

  5. ant says:

    Gooder Simpson boulivard leeds into the medical buildings already. i am not aware of anything named after PB. The Stout name is on the street and baseball field because of Jay’s parents not him. I agree this is indefensible on Jay, but it does not erase what his family has done in the past for this community. The haters will always find a way to turn anything into a way to stir the pot. John, Ron and Donya need to shut up.

    • Ron Hau says:

      At least when I say something I’m man enough to sign my name to it. Grow a back bone.

    • Ron Hau says:

      I don’t recall you speaking out when that walking hemorroid accused Mayor Finia of cheating on a gulf game or Citizens for a better Piedmont was sending out nasty fliers about him or when Jay stood up and publicly lied about the Bells. But when it’s your friend we should shut up. Don’t think so.

      • Ant says:

        Hopefully you will never get caught doing wrong and have to face the public bashing you are so fond of. You may get a kick out of this and i am sure you probably threw a celebration when the news was posted but a civilized person does not celebrate the humiliation of others.

        • Ron Hau says:

          Again Ant, you spineless worm why was it ok for the Citizens for a Better Piedmont ( wich I suspect you’re a member of) to bash Finia? You sound so righteous when someone on your side gets caught with his hand… in the cockie jar, but didnt have a problem when your friends made accessions about people on the other side. You Mr. Worm are nothing but a hypocrite.

          • brian vermillion says:

            Was “cockie” a typo? Lol.

          • JT says:

            So your equating engaging in lewd acts public park where children are around to mudslinging campaign fliers? Or are you saying it’s OK to mock someone for engaging in lewd acts in public because one of your friends was the victim of a mudslinging campaign? Or are you just using the fact that your friend was the victim of campaign mudslinging as an excuse to celebrate the humiliation of someone else because it makes you feel better?

  6. JT says:

    Whoops. your = you’re and acts IN A public park.

  7. Ron Hau says:

    Jonathan are you saying you draw the line at having gay sex in the park in front of children, anything less is ok with you?

  8. Ron Hau says:

    I’m a liberal Johnathan I don’t hate anyone. Not even you.

    • ant says:

      no it’s obvious what you are and liberal does not begin to describe it.

      • Ron Hau says:

        I’d say spineless is a good description of some one who won’t print their own name. So we’re well aware of what you are.

  9. ant says:

    It is just eating you up that you cannot figure out who i am . You cannot try and intimidate me like you try to everybody else. Your nothing but an uneducated bully.

  10. Richard Jones says:

    Boy – this is gittin’ good. And No cover charge to boot! Hey bartender – If we could get a couple-a-more beers over here, it would be great – thanks. My money is on the spineless, gay-hating, line draw-er.

  11. Abe says:

    “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt” (Abraham Lincoln)

  12. john says:

    Your hedging your betting line.

  13. Ron Hau says:

    You’re just mad cause he did bet on you too.

  14. john says:

    Hey Ron you need to tread lightly when Ant speaks. He is a self promoting mouth piece that no one would ever listen too if he ever had to disclose who he really is… he may give you a stern warning if he thinks your not paying him enough attention. Be careful.

  15. Ron Hau says:

    I’d hate him to realize that because I already know what he is I care very little who he is.

  16. john says:

    My sentiments exactly!!

  17. Concerned says:

    Ron has always been a bully. That’s why the cops always have to watch him at city council meetings. You just never know when the guy is gonna pop a gasket and go postal.

  18. Ron Hau says:

    Who was it that popped a gasket and elbowed Mr. Simpson ribs?

    • Concerned says:

      Did that come after John Mike forcefully chest bumped Mr. Boevers with his humongus man boobs? Plenty of us were there to see that little exchange. I think intense anger management courses are in line for both of you. Ron, you know you have serious anger problems. Admitting it is the first step towards recovery.

      • ant says:

        concerned you need to realize it is all a conspiracy that john & ron have to keep going. anytime anything happens to anybody who remotely agrees with PB they attack and cloud the facts. look at when i asked for specifics on what fees were waived, when and where. John all of the sudden had better things to do and refused to back up his accusations. same song different tune always with these guys.

  19. john says:

    Your assesmrnt is wrong Concerned, if you ever attended a council meetings on a regular basis then you already know that your last statemnt is a flat out lie that was stated over and over by the now disgraced Jay Stout and our mayor Valorie Thomerson. Ron was asked to leave when he clapped at the wrong time during one meeting but the mayor had no problem letting her good friend PB over talk meetings and interrupt others. So let’s stick to facts concerned.

  20. john says:

    Ron, are those not interesting statements from Concerned and (spineless)?? the video from that meeting does not support yet another lie by concerned from that night’s meeting and Ant has yet to substantiate his claims or assertions of any item discussed other than over working his loud mouth. The readers understand their both phonies just like hiding behind fake names as I stated if they revealed their names to all of us than the majority of the people would just laugh at them both for who they really are.

    • ant says:

      John you talk in circles!! answer the questions to your accusations. you run on the assumption that if you say it loud enough multiple times it must be true. most people in this have not figured out the simpsons are getting ready to be the largest developers in this town. I guess john has video from outside the building showing him initiating the contact on PB then crying about it after there was some return contact. as always classy

  21. ant says:

    and by the way john and ron have interupted more meetings than anybody in town

  22. john says:

    Ant again more lies since the video tapes I have in my possession and every single audio tape that records every single city council meeting will not support your countless lies. Give it up your exposed.

  23. john says:

    BTW the audio tapes from the council meetings are public record and free to the public to obtain by only filing for Freedom of information request. That again is where your lies will be exposed. Once proven a liar always a liar.

    • Concerned says:

      Your video tape only shows what went on inside the chambers. Your little video man didn’t follow you out into the hallway. Again, we were there, we saw what you did. If Phil started this then why didn’t the police arrest him for assault??? You speak hollow words.

  24. john says:

    Oh than you must have never seen the video. That’s ok your picture is in there.

  25. Ron Hau says:

    Concerned was you surprised to see how that the “little video man” recorded Cindy giving up her seat to the poor pregnant ex girlfriend of Mayor Fina? I know I was. But not nearly as surprised as I was when I saw her in another video just days later not pregnant but smoking and drinking.
    I think you may end up with a surprise again if you ever get to see what that little video man captured the night Mr. Simpson was elbowed in the ribs. Come on over and watch them with me. Bring Ant, I’ll suply the pop corn.

  26. ant says:

    Just be a man and get over it! If John thinks he is tough enough to bump into people, then suffer the consequences and do not cry to the teacher. At the end of the day all the “proof” you to seem to have does not amount to anything or it would be front and center. All the “he said she said” is nothing but muddy water when the real issue is how the lies started this about waived fees and land deals. show the proof or shut up

  27. Ron Hau says:

    Lol someone who is too scared to sign their name to what they write and even goes by “ant”, preaching to others about being a man!

  28. ant says:

    The funny thing is facts are facts no matter who recites them. I truely believe your only reason for wanting to know everybodies identity is to try and influence and intimidate. Those of us who remain anonimous do so for specific reasons you will never understand. However our views and opinions are just as valid as anybody elses.

  29. ant says:

    And if the little video man did record anything i am sure it was because he was instructed to do so with the first bump being the bait. Kinda chicken s*** on Johns part don’t you think??

  30. Ron Hau says:

    Ant you’re right I wouldn’t understand. I’ll never under stand anyone that is so much of a chicken s*** to not sign their name then question the courage of others. I hear you’re not supposed to judge but I do it every day by their acsions. You Ant are :1st a hypocrit and 2nd a coward. How do you look in the mirror or face your kids?

  31. john says:

    Ron you can’t disagree with stupid and that is what you got with Ant, Just let him rant it appears all his buddies are seld imploding themselves and melting down each time I pick up a newspaper or watch the news cast.

  32. ant says:

    Well keep the name calling up, the intimidation strong and by all means do not proove any of the accusations you have made. I will make you a deal proove the waived fee accusations and i will tell you who i am.

  33. Ron Hau says:

    No need ant “you” prove the “accusation” every time you make a comment.

  34. john says:

    I already did and you admitted to waived fees were done for favors on the past so your memory sucks too.

  35. john says:

    That what happen ant when you make up your stories and you can’t remember s* it from your previous posts. I’m done here go back to your bottle.

  36. JT says:

    Wow this is quite entertaining reading. So far I have learned:

    John supposedly has tremendous man boobs. Ron doesn’t hate anyone*, may have a bad temper, and is the only real man (except for John) because he signs his name or something. Ant is a coward because he doesn’t sign his name and doesn’t have non-existent video from the hallway at city hall that shows what happened between Phil Boevers and John Simpson.

    *Except for the spineless coward Ant.

  37. Concerned says:

    Ron, the reason we don’t post our real names on here is cause we are skerd of you. You got screws loose. You got an anger problem. I don’t wanna have to deal with you sitting in my driveway or knocking on my door. That’s why. We all know that you got a temper that you can’t control.

  38. Ron Hau says:

    Wow JT after talking about John that way I now realize why you’re such good friends with Jay! Just do us all a favor and stay away from the parks.

  39. john says:

    Your argument just fell on itself.

  40. Ron Hau says:

    JT / Johnathan H. I’ve known who you are for a long time. Have I ever threatoned you?
    You Wormy and Cofused just like making stupid comments without “most” people knowing who you are.

  41. JT says:

    I never said you were threatening me. Is that a Freudian slip or just an admission of the truth?

    You’ve known who I am for a long time? What are you some kind of stalker or something?

    This is the internet man, it was made for anonymity. Why is it so important to tell everyone who you are? I guess twitter/Facebook/Myspace/mybutt has corrupted your mind. I for one don’t need the internet to tell everyone “hey look at me”. I personally don’t understand it.

  42. Ron Hau says:

    After reading some of confused statements she sure sounds like that woman I used to see all time at the council meetings. You know, the one that walks likes she’s dragging a 10 pound hemorroid behind her.

  43. Concerned says:

    In the next episode of the “Ron & John Show” they’ll bring you first hand(s) accounts of what goes on at Hobie Point as they head out in their next undercover assignment.

  44. john says:

    I see you ignored sound advice from Abe.

  45. Kate Kearby says:

    at some point someone needs to call truce, this is not good, not just not good, downright scary , breathe people. lets get over it and move forward, can’t change what was done (most of it way out of our control) or how it was done by anyone 2weeks ago 2 years or 20 years ago. Move on, Peace brothers.

  46. john says:

    I was talking to a present sitting council member this morning that was talking to some of the members of the dowtown men’s coffee club that are against the proposed increase of impact fees by the city. There claims have been bogus as to their reasons to be against the increase. It appears the city wants to raise the impact fees on new construction to be in line with the other surrounding citys. These fees will help negate the impact to the city’s infrastructure and roads.

  47. john says:

    Let me preface the members of the downtown men’s club was not present when I had my discussion this morning.

  48. Richard Jones says:

    Although I don’t usually make eye contact with men who hang out downtown, I fail to see the point of decaf.

    It seems that punishing developers for the impact on city services by the neighborhoods that they develop is similar to admitting defeat before the game has started.

    I wonder what would happen if Piedmont began Incentivizing developers to place appropriate housing in areas that are more advantageous to the city and its sales tax base. I have no idea who owns this land, and it really shouldn’t matter – as long as The Growth is good for the City of Piedmont. As the City Council, it seems only right that they should be holding the reins. In government – at all levels – if you want less of something, you tax it. When you want more of something, you incentivize it.

    Before anyone reaches critical mass on favoring developers, let me re-state that I believe that the City Council should re-claim its position in the driver’s seat of Piedmont’s future. All Of Those that prove not to be able to play well with others should be encouraged to seek their fortunes elsewhere.

    But then again, what do I know? I’m a one-trick pony, and that trick is five hundred feet tall and spinning.

  49. john says:

    Richard you have to be invited to be a member of that downtown mens coffee club ……I was told i was never welcome because I would not prescribe to their brand of bull crap. I can assure your missing nothing that group has to offer.

  50. JT says:

    John are you worried this increase in fees might cut into your profits as you sell of all of your family’s land?

  51. john says:

    I’m for the increase so the question should be asked why the downtown men’s club is lobbying against it.

  52. JT says:

    I don’t know who the downtown men’s club is. Perhaps if you were more specific about who you were talking about it might clarify it more. If any of them would have to pay the increased fee you probably have your answer.

  53. john says:

    Ant is a member of that club, he can answer that for you who all the members are.

  54. JT says:

    How do you know such a club exists if you can’t even name any of the members?

  55. Ant says:

    Not a member of any club and i am not a developer. This is how draws you in by lying about everything and everybody. John has cannot know if he is for or againzt fee increases because he has not really developed anything yet. The grocery was funded by the city so he did not care about fees. But i believe the rest of the clan was not all for it as john says he is

  56. JT says:

    John just spouts off about something he heard somewhere, and then he gets stuck because he doesn’t know what he is talking about. When he gets stuck he just changes the subject and acts like nothing has happened.

  57. ant says:

    as time goes by more and more people will realize johns whole platform is revenge and not based on facts

  58. john says:

    JT you say your educated and I believe you know this town but I guess you never read the paper and I guess Ant is just plain embarrassed to show his face. The downtown men’s clubs meets every day at a local real estate office on Piedmont road………..Don’t forget the city council meets tomm nite on this very topic on raising impact fees on new construction to be in line with surrounding citys. Everybody needs to attend and advocate this fee increase for better roads and maintaining our infrastructure. Hey Ant what is the going rate for a water tap in Piedmont?????????????

  59. john says:

    Revenge???? Ant I think you need to come clean.

  60. ant says:

    John you need to backup your accusations. you accuse everybody of everything but when asked specifics you just change the subject. get over yourself and realize your curremt tactics are just hurting Piedmont and its residents. you are not a spokesman for the community and your opinions are not accurate or valid.

  61. john says:

    I never said I was a spokesmen for the town your the one that hides behind a fake name and spew your ignorance and false accusations. I still see you have yet to read the Williams contract.

    • Ant says:

      Oh so you did not have to pay to extend the water line from the corner?

    • john says:

      We paid over $159,000 thousand to extend the sewer line that hooked up Williams grocery and once the DEQ approved the final construction of that sewer line my family/partners dedicated that portion of the sewer line and easements back to the city. Proven yet another lie of yours to be unfounded, Ant.

      • Ant says:

        Tell the rest of the story, you have to deed it back as it is now a city line. With the deed back you have the potential of recouping some of your costs as more development occurs. I believe its called an A & P? That is your problem you only tell parts of the truth!!

      • JT says:

        It’s pretty normal for the developer to pay for the public improvements like water and sewer. They become the city’s lines, but the developer puts them in. Some cities have partial reimbursement programs.

        John you have to admit that having that sewer line run to Williams and the other line that runs all the way across that section is pretty advantageous for future development on property that you are a joint owner of. $159,000 is a small investment to make the property much more valuable for commercial or residential development.

        • ant says:

          he will probably ignore this since he cannot twist it. A&P or A&B plan, either way he will probably recoup some money. he feels he donated the line but fails to convey he has no choice but to do so. such a gentleman!!

          • john says:

            You asked the question and I explained the answer. i agree Jonathon, thanks for asking. Darrel you need anything else??????? And yes the city put a capital improvement of city sewer thru my families property as the city was placed on a morotorium on any new sewer taps as to the orders by the DEQ. The consent order was quite finite as to get the city sewer upgraded after the city lagoon system failed a few years ago. The city had three options to hook Piedmont to city sewer from OKC, each option was going to cross my family’s land that we have had in the family for over 90 yars. And yes its called an A&B line, and yes we can recoup some of the cost to future developers that would hook on to that portion of sewer improvment that my family constructed and dedicated back to the city as that is written in the ordinance. That same plan will allow for the city and the public school that shared the cost of that sewer line in the old town where the new intermediate school was built to recoup their costs for that sewer upgrade. Which by the way is written in every abutting city codified ordinances in our area that has the same ordinance. So (Ant)Darrell, what is your real problem??????

          • JT says:

            Yeah that’s true the city wasn’t going to pay for the line. He didn’t donate anything. Paying for the line out of his own pocket was just the cost of doing business.

            You got some money for the R/W or easement for the sewer line that hooks to OKC. The city of Piedmont took out a loan to pay for that construction if I remember correctly. That increased the value of your property. All I’m saying is that you benefited quite a bit from all that. That is fairly plain to see now as all the property you own on that section is for sale.

          • ant says:

            problem is you pesented it as if you and your partners did some kind of noble deed by dedicating the line to the city. although your statement is technically true, you were misleading in your presentation and when first asked you denied it. it is these kinds of misrepresentations that have this city in such turmoil. John you question everybody doing business in this community as if they are part of a conspiracy except for you and your “partners”. Thing is it not only has to be proper it needs to look proper. Try a new approach of trying to be part of the solution in lieu of being the problem

          • ant says:

            JT you understand my points. John wants to put it out there that he is only interested in what is good for Piedmont. after closer look it is apparent his only concern is lining his and his partners pockets. look at the williams deal, it is the worst financial decision this city has ever made. tax revenue has actually gone down or stayed the same since the store opened. difference is we are now rebating back sales tax we were keeping before they opened. check it out for yourself.

  62. Concerned says:

    Ron and John should run for city council and mayor the next time those elections come up. Ooops! One doesn’t live in Piedmont and the other can’t control his anger. If you don’t even live in the town and aren’t a resident why be so concerned with the goings on? Money, it’s all about the money.

    • john says:

      Ant(Darrel), Again why don’t you yell the whole story about yourself,…………… and I didn’t mislead on that fact of the sewer and my statement or any statements.. That is public record or didn’t you know that Darrel? Technically “you say” but what I stated is fully accurate. How did I mislead when you “Darrell”have a hidden agenda. Is that not right Darrell,??????? And I never denied anything about the sewer on what transpired these past few years. I am still astonished how a grown man that is educated as you are supposed to be as you can keep talking about the grocery store and how it came to pass and you have yet to read the contract nor comprehend any of it. Now your showing your ignorance or lack of comprehension. You told me how you didn’t like the tax incentives that your good friend PB was wanting with the city for himself. PB had the contract with Williams first in this city, so why don’t you ask PB why he tore up the contract. You are filled with so much anger and hate and I dont why as I have never done anything to you. If anybody needs anger management and counseling it is you. My opinion of course for your health. You can’t cling to anger all the time as that is a crippling emotion. Take care.

      • JT says:

        Who is Darrell? Like this my brother Darrell and my other brother Darrell?

        • Ant says:

          Darrel is a figment of johns imagination. I have no anger just a common sense approach to what i see. Yes i have read the williams contract as i have a copy of it. Very vague and one sided. No i did not like the williams deal with PB but when it was going that way it was a smaller less expensive store that would have paid back quicker with no interest. The whole idea of the store was to A) provide a community service and B) provide income to the city. There is no income to the city based on the tax records yet. Just compare pre store to post store and you will see revenue is not there. Your statement on the A & B was put out there like you and your partners had donated a sewer line to the city out of the goodness of your heart and as we all know that is not the case. So no anger just facts

          • Ant says:

            By the way the contract with williams could not be executed because the city council voted the whole deal down. The same deal that would have had 3 businesses and shell space for more with a mile of water and sewer for future development north. And yes i read that proposal and understood the potential it had for the community as a whole. Currently anything PB proposes you attack and that is hurting the community. From here on out look at every potential deal brought on its merits and do not base it on who brings it. If you will the business climate will change for the better.

          • john says:

            Well Ant(Darrel) (PB)SPOS or whatever you want to call your self, your just angry and bitter as I cannot figure why. You have yet to understand how the TIF district was established in the first place or facts confuse you.. I was living in Texas when the Tif district was established and was going to be used and for the development and recruitment of a grocery store for Piedmont. This was thoroughly discussed years ago when the city sponsored the citizens involvement of the P3 initiative and workshops with citizens and civic leaders. That was the overwhelming consensus of the groups number one priority a grocery store, hands down. Now back to present day and the analysis between the Williams contract and the proposal from PB and Buy For Less were apple and oranges in comparison. Buy for less was never coming out to Piedmont as long as Williams was coming first. Williams paid for the research, traffic studies, marketing data as the Williams took the city seriously on investing in Piedmont year’s before PB began a conversation with Hank at Buy for Less. Williams was first with the proposal and when PB had the contract with Williams PB was fine with any deal he could make with the city. But when Williams stated he was coming out to Piedmont regardless if the town central PUD got approval or not . That angered PB as he could not use the grocery store as cover for the many flaws the PUD had written in its proposal to the city. That is when Phil tore up the contract and Mr Williams came to my family at that time. BTW, Mr Williams spoke with 4 other people before coming to my family for discussions. Then PB was trying to create a dog in a race that was never going to materialize as the market analysis and all of the surveys and feedback from all the marketing data was the citizens wanted a fully functional grocery store, not another metal barn for a overstocked convenience store that was proposed with the Town Central PUD. Tiff districts are designed to create tax incentives and boost sales tax for revenue streams. TIFs are never used to pay for infrastructure costs such as sewer, water and streets as was proposed in that now rejected PUD. That is why the PUD was voted down and still sits as farm land and the city went with Williams. Now bout your comparison analysis of sales tax the last couple years. You are missing one fundamental factor to this phenomenon. Since May of 2011when the tornado touched so many lives, people began building in late 2011 and in 12, so the sales tax has fallen back to pre tornado construction days from point of sales delivery of building materials and our still weak nations economy but please don’t let facts interfere with your anger and hatred, maybe there is one of the 7 capital sins that may apply to you as well. Maybe you need to read the good book and do some soul searching for yourself. I will pray you do as I will too. God speed!!!

          • ant says:

            To much to cover there. We have different views and the bottom line is the tax base is pretty much the same now as it was pre-tornado/williams. There are 2 different views on this and we are not going to change each others opinions. Once the term is up on the williams deal we will know the true cost of this deal and i believe it will be a huge cost to the city. Its funny you bring up the TIF as you know the main reason for a TIF was to re-develop depressed areas or develop areas that otherwise could not be developed due to lack of services. Your deal did not qualify and it took a judge to get you to drop it. There are many theories on how to stimulate our tax base and i believe both deals had flaws. Problem was there was a race to beat PB and the deal is not good for the city. Time will tell.

  63. JT says:

    John why would a developer be in favor of raising impact fees? It might help pay for roads, but it is just going to make it more expensive to develop residential land.

    The real problem with the city government in this town is it simply can’t afford to maintain a town that is 44 square miles in size. They can’t even mow the ditches or the city lots they own in a timely manner. They can’t keep streets fixed. They do a good job with the water and the trash, but they use a contractor for the trash.

    I count 58 miles of section line road plus an untold number of miles of neighborhood streets. In addition there are 20+ miles of roads on the city’s borders. I assume it shares the maintenance of those roads with Oklahoma, Canadian and Kingfisher County and Oklahoma City.

    Cut down the size of the town by 60 or 70%. Then the town might have a much better chance of keeping up the streets. Towns with populations similar to Piedmont are much, much smaller in land area. Look it up and you’ll be surprised.

    • Kate Kearby says:

      well now that’s one option, it would also reduce the size of the town population and qualify for more county help again and bring in more money to PMA for those that would be using city services outside the city limits and being charged more ;-). But some people want so much to be residents of Piedmont. They protect and serve so well even way out.

  64. Kate Kearby says:

    the increased cost of fees doesn’t hurt a developer it hurts a homebuyer? what I saw and read on fees is that we are just slightly below Edmond and way above any neighboring towns? anyway, I know there’s at least 3 downtown ‘mens’ clubs. Us girls sure are up a creek with all the chauvinists around. Oh well still in battle I see?

  65. john says:

    Ant you are all over the place with your logic. It’s amazing how you spat off your analysis about taxes generated without back up and now you concede like a limp noodle. Again why the disguise still? you may come across at least a bit more credible than an angry old man that has done nothing but complained and never donated time to any civic groups in this community. And the race to beat PB as you stated. PB had the contract at the beginning and then he screwed the pooch. Why has PB not developed his town central PUD? H.e can put the sewer and water lines using the A&B plan and recoup some of his investment that you and JT pointed out earlier. So why is he sittting on it?. He stated than he had all these businesses wanting to come to Piedmont or was he just simply blowing smoke back then for his so called race? I was reading the minutes from that meeting back in 2007 of this very topic. Quite revealing. The truth never lies! You may want to write that down.

  66. ant says:

    i am very aware of the games played in 07, 08 and on and on. bottom line is agendas were at play. as far as town center, time will tell what happens there, but an anchor tenant is required to take on that comitment and that is why the town got screwed as much as the developer on getting that major infrastructure in place.

  67. john says:

    I am very aware of the games played to, such as full page ads of lies, dirty campaigns, past president and execs of the Piedmont chamber taking out full page ads of golf score cards as that was wonderful to promote any new business prospects coming to Piedmont. All that illustrated of what low class individuals we have in this town. We all know who those individuals are and you were a part of that Ant and now you want all of us feel bad for a developer that over sold a flawed PUD that could not get enough support of the towns people or the city council back then. God knows he spent enough of gorilla ads in the Gazette. I’m going to ask again how come the developer just don’t pay for the infrastructure to that PUD and collect it back on the A&B plan as new developments hook on to it, can you answer that8 Ant for all us readers???? You stated it earlier on.how easy it is to collect that investment back on the A&B plan. Or do you have amnesia?

    • Cindy says:

      He cheated on that damn golf game and everyone that was there knew it. You are hilarious JM. Every time I see you I just have to laugh. What a joke !

  68. ant says:

    you need to read the town center proposal again. as with most contracts you have really understand what you are reading to comprehend it. i agree it was a dirty campaign but it was dirty from both sides, some were just more mainstream than others. i think we have beat this thing long enough. as stated before we both have a different opinon and point of view that is not going to change.

  69. john says:

    You sure have selective memory. Oh well……..

  70. ant says:

    You know John the problem is the grocery deals were involving public money. When you have public money all members of the public are suspossed to have an equal and fair chance at submitting their proposal for review. That did not happen and no matter what else transpired bottom line is the deal went to your family all the while a smear campaign was waged against the town center deal, that in turn resulted in a campaign against those in power. It all escalated to where we are now. these are the simple facts.

  71. john says:

    But if there was truly two deals to compare for review your analysis would be correct but as it stands there was only one viable deal and that was with Williams grocery. Mr. Williams has been working on that for years and your saying when PB tore up the contract with Mr Williams that is when PB created a race and hastily put a deal together in two weeks the public was supposed to take it seriously with its many flaws. You need to re-read it again and take your rose colored glasses off.

    • ant says:

      Rose colored??? That is your opinion on the PUD. Again that is why an actual comparison should have been made. And no i do not believe Williams spent years on this just as i don’t believe you spent years on this. Simply put public funds directed for a single private business on your land without any third party input about options. I was at the meeting when the last town center PUD was being presented to create a TIF district, but the mayor would not consider it because he personally had already made a deal with Williams. The attorneys just asked to have it compared side by side by a third party TIF commitee to rate both deals on their merits. split council vote to move forward with Williams deal and not even look at the PUD. At no time was the PUD being put in with TIF funds, only the tenants that would occupy those buildings would have an option to apply for TIF funds. Talk about flawed deals the Williams deal does not even resemble what was first proposed and then eventually approved due to flaws in the proposal.

  72. JT says:

    “Tiff districts are designed to create tax incentives and boost sales tax for revenue streams. TIFs are never used to pay for infrastructure costs such as sewer, water and streets as was proposed in that now rejected PUD.”

    Holy cow! Say what? I’ve read all these comments, but this stands out to me as….just plain ignorant. Tax Increment Finance Districts are used to pay for water, sewer and streets quite regularly. Go no further than downtown Oklahoma City. A TIF was created when the Devon Tower was built and it is paying $125 million towards all the street reconstruction in downtown. Some of it is done and more is on the way.

    Go to Tulsa and look at the Tulsa Hills shopping center. A TIF district was created for that 250+ acre development. That TIF paid for several miles of water and sewer lines and 1 mile of 4 lane city street and 2 or 3 signalized intersections.

    I don’t claim to know why the PUD was voted down, but if the reason was because the city council thought that TIFs weren’t used to pay for infrastructure those guys were truly ignorant. But that is water under the bridge. Further discussion of that would be foolish.

  73. john says:

    Tiff districts are used to offset infrastructure costs for streett improvements, for water, and sewer that benefits commercial and large employment centers only that will generate increased sales tax with the approved Tiff district, never has a TIF district been established to defray the cost associated with residential development. That cost belongs to the individual property developer who wants to build homes and neighborhoods. Please read the proposal that was denied by the city. The town central PUD wanted both tax incentives for both commercial and residential and that is why it was denied. Everything you cited from OKC and Tulsa just reconfirms what I stated. Thanks JT.

  74. JT says:

    “TIFs are never used to pay for infrastructure costs such as sewer, water and streets as was proposed in that now rejected PUD.”

    “Tiff districts are used to offset infrastructure costs for streett improvements, for water, and sewer that benefits commercial and large employment centers…”

    You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    So how much sales tax does the Devon Energy corporate headquarters produce? They aren’t a retail establishment. How much sales tax does the Myriad Gardens produce? That is a city park.

  75. JT says:

    “…never has a TIF district been established to defray the cost associated with residential development. That cost belongs to the individual property developer who wants to build homes and neighborhoods.”

    Also while you’re at it look up Las Rosas Residential Tax Increment District in Oklahoma City. If what you say is true I wonder how the OKC city council approved it 8 years ago.

    • ant says:

      you have proved your point. John will just shift and try to act like he knew it all along. funny thing is he thinks you are proving his point and you are just trying to set the record straight.

      • john says:

        Ant, Your anger and animosity is showing thru as you cannot argue facts. As to why your boss tell him good day!!

        • Ant says:

          You do make me laugh with all this anger and identity accusations. Bottom line is i have opinions based on the facts and history that you do not like. So go on and pat yourself on the back tell everybody the good deeds you have done for the community all while you deposit the money you making. I actually am glad to see your family making money, but do not get full of yourself and think it makes you some sort of saint in the community. It is your statements like my partners/family dedicated the sewer back to the city just confirms the idea that you believe you are better than everybody else. Keep in mind every developer that builds a street or any infrastructure (as long as it is built to city standards) is always dedicating it to the city per the city charter. Anger no disgusted yes.

  76. john says:

    Dear JT, there are kiosks, retail outlets, restruraunts, alcohol bars, concerts, sporting event’s that all generate tax revenue from the Cox center and the Devon tower. Las Rosas was a depressed area and it was going thru reclamation. The myriad gardens was completed in the late 1970’s when Mayor Latting was in office that was an urban renewal project. Thanks for asking I like to help!!!!

    • JT says:

      The $125 million from the Devon TIF is coming from the increase in the property taxes on the Devon property and the sales tax on the construction materials used to construct the Devon Tower. No sales tax money generated by any of the businesses is paying for all the reconstructed streets, fancy traffic signals, fancy parking meters, fancy street lights, bike paths, colored concrete, landscaping etc. Larry Nichols wanted to build his world headquarters in OKC and he wanted the rest of downtown to be as nice as his building. You do know TIFs don’t just involve sales tax right?

      It doesn’t matter what Las Rosas is, a TIF district was created for it and it is a residential area. The TIF money is paying for storm sewer, paving, grading, water and sewer for a residential area. You just wrote “…never has a TIF district been established to defray the cost associated with residential development. That cost belongs to the individual property developer who wants to build homes and neighborhoods.” You were totally wrong, yet you just keep going on like nothing happened.

      The Myriad Gardens was built in the 70’s yes, but it was recently totally remolded. Have you not been downtown lately? The Crystal Gardens was totally reglazed, the park was re landscaped and a new band stand was built. That was all paid for with the Devon TIF money since it is right across the street from Devon.

      Again you wrote “Tiff districts are used to offset infrastructure costs for streett improvements, for water, and sewer that benefits commercial and large employment centers only that will generate increased sales tax with the approved Tiff district…”

      The purpose of the Devon TIF district was to use the INCREASE in the property taxes on the Devon property to pay for public improvements as outlined above.

      So to summarize you were wrong about 1) TIF districts never paying for public improvements 2) TIF districts never paying for public improvements for residential developments and 3) the sole purpose of a TIF district being to generate increases in sales tax from commercial and large employment centers only.

      Now go attack Ant when he agrees with me.

      • john says:

        Again your comparing a billion dollar company’s investment in downtown OKC to a empty wheat field in Piedmont. That is laughable.

        • john says:

          BTW……Where are all the single family dwellings in downtown OKC JT?, so is OKC going to tear down the Chesapeake arena to build a bunch of 1800 to 3500 square foot homes with Devon Tiff money? Don’t think so, and the Las Rosa project as your crown jewel of your argument is not comparable to a empty wheat field as again that was a reclamation project, but I will concede it is a Tiff district to reclaim a blighted area for residential purposes, my advice to u is you need to thoroughly read what you google before you quote it for supporting arguments. One more tidbit in Ants love affair of the Town Central Pud Tiff request was to divert advolorem taxes away from our school to defray costs to this development, that would have taken necessary funding away from our school district. The previous superintendent hated the idea and the possible loss of advolorem taxes diverted away from school funding.And BTW, I have been downtown many times and actually played in several big swing bands and a few polka bands on the old and new stages in the past and enjoyed all the vendors, retail outlets and also had a few brews down in that very area that I was able to purchase goods and services and add to the sales tax OKC was and is collecting.

          • john says:

            So the Town central pud was requesting two funding mechanism to fund the commercial and the residential development of that Pud, it requested all the sales tax as a form of tax rebate back to PB’s Buy for Less and also additional advolorem taxes to fund other parts of it as it was discussed in that infamous city council meeting back in 2007. The video and audio tapes of that meeting will support everything I have stated. Zero comparison of the two proposals.

          • JT says:

            No John OKC isn’t going to tear down the ‘Peake and build single family homes. They might do it in 40 or 50 years and call it urban renewal though. (That was a joke in case you misunderstood it.)

            Schools usually despise TIFs that use property taxes. That is nothing new.

            I’m not comparing anything to anything. You made these blanket statements about TIFs using the words ONLY and NEVER. Never used for infrastructure costs, never used to defray the cost for a residential development, only used for large commercial development that will generate sales tax.

            You had no idea what you were talking about, and you were flat wrong. You can’t bring yourself to admit it. Your ego must be huge.

  77. john says:

    Ant, take a breath, why are you so angry? I have never said I was a saint and I have never patted my own back on anything, you asked questions and I have provided answers that are verifiable facts that is public record. Please for your health sake, go see some professional help about your anger and other hidden disgusted issues. It’s not healthy . Take care

  78. Ant says:

    Point is just because you say it doesnt make it true. No anger here and i do not need your advice or slanderous comments

  79. john says:

    Remember Ant excepting and recognizing your problems is the first step.And besides your just a figment of everybody’s imagination.. LOL. 🙂

  80. JT says:


    July 24, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    “…Now go attack Ant when he agrees with me.”


    July 24, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    “Remember Ant excepting and recognizing your problems is the first stepAnd besides your just a figment of everybody’s imagination.. LOL.”

  81. ant says:

    have not seen many blighted wheat fields, but that is how they got the williams deal. only after they realized their TIF was not legal did they switch to a sales tax rebate that is open ended and they have no idea how much the city is ultimately on the hook for. yes schools typically do not like TIF deals but you have to realize if the TIF district does what it is designed to the increase in everything else either keeps their level of funding the same or it increases with the additional roofs down the road. it takes money to make money

    • JT says:

      I’ve seen blighted wheat fields. However the blight was actually on the wheat plant itself!

  82. JT says:

    Heh. I had forgotten about how they tried to use something about blight in the original proposal. If I remember right that might have caused a lawsuit when that was attempted.

    Now all 612 acres of that “blighted” land is for sale.

  83. Old Timer says:

    All of this BS began as a result of an undercover sting operation involving a Piedmont resident. Only in Piedmont!

    • Ant says:

      Sorry for that but when the Ron and John show gets on their high horse i feel the need to remind everyone what really transpired

  84. john says:

    The Williams deal was not part of any blighted deal.(my family did not like the ideal of blighted either) It was discussed at the beginning and scrapped and a simple tax rebate from the sales tax back from the sales of groceries is remitted back to Williams grocery Inc in other words 3 of the 5 cents collected in sales taxes collections is rebate back to Williams to offset his expense as a in investment in our town. . So in other words if you don’t shop there that tax will have no affect on you Ant or you JT as you are both on record from previous posts that you won’t shop there. So how is that affecting your pocketbook? It’s doesn’t.. And please remember that no grocery store was ever coming out here without a subsidy of some kind. There were four players(land owners) before my family who had the opportunity in front of them with this deal. They either passed or in PB’s case got mad like a baby and tore his contract up with Mr Williams, ain’t that right Ant??????? Then my family was appraoched at the last option and we struck a deal with Williams. Ant tries to convince people that there were backdoor deals or something smelling not quite right but there wasn’t and he knows it but he rather live a lie than tell the truth. It is more convenient for him to lie and hide behind a fake name and attack at will.

  85. JT says:

    When did I ever say it was affecting my pocketbook? When did I ever say I don’t shop there? I did say I don’t buy much there because their prices are higher than other grocery stores. I do occasionally buy a few things when they are needed immediately, and my wife has bought some things when they have a sale.

    Furthermore that “tax” as in sales tax applies to me no matter where I purchase something in Piedmont. There isn’t any extra tax being applied. By the way Piedmont’s sales tax is pretty high at 9.85%.

    What would you like to change the subject to now John?

  86. Ant says:

    I never said i dont shop there. I have even commented on it being a nice store. John believes every dollar spent at williams is a dollar that was never going to be spent in piedmont. Very untrue statement as many people use williams as a convienence store in lieu of DG, jiffy trip and C stop. That shift took tax revenue away from the city

  87. john says:


    • john says:

      Ant, you make a very valid point on the shift of tax revenue, that was discussed at the council meeting back then and if the city would have pulled the plug on Williams and granted PB wishes with Buy For Less with him requiring collecting all the sales tax this town would really be SOL. Correct?

      • ant says:

        It is very possible except if the other businesses would have come as well, there was a hope that it would spur more retail in the development. This coupled with the other aspects of the PUD had multiple avenues of potential revenue for the city. The smaller less expensive building was less impact on the tax rebate so a quicker payback. The PUD allowed for expansion at will in that area of town where on the entrance to Piedmont there is not any shovel ready small lots. In these brief blog type discussions it is hard to convey each and every potential issue good or bad, but as a whole there was a future on edmond road that is not the same as on Piedmont road. If you would develope streets and lots around Williams there could be some potential for a business district that would be great for the city of piedmont. From the start of this whole ordeal i have felt your side has not ever looked at anything PB does without total attack and no vision.

        • john says:

          Ant, I am a bit perplexed on your statement of the smaller less expensive building that PB was proposing. The Williams deal is valued at $1.9 million and PB was asking for $2.0 million so where was the other money going?

          • Ant says:

            2 million??? I have read town center and it was for 1.4 with no interest. Your deal was 1.9 + interest. Simple math put your deal almost 3 million over 25and years. Mr williams settled for 3 cents for i believe 20are years with no cap. We will not know until the calender runs out what the total will be. With growth who knows what kind of cash cow williams has.

  88. JT says:

    I don’t understand why the city isn’t using all the sales tax money it’s getting from Williams to fund street projects. Someone needs to be held accountable for wasting all of that money. It must add up to millions of dollars by now.

  89. Concerned says:

    Of the 5 cent sales tax that Piedmont collects from Williams only 1 cent goes into the general fund. That’s it. 1 cent on the dollar. Williams gets 3 cents back and the fire department get the other 1 cent.
    And that’s for the next 20 years. It was a bad, bad deal for Piedmont. If Williams was really as civic minded as John keeps saying he’d have built the store with his own money. Sad fact is John and those he represents were just in this deal for the money. They were just looking to make a buck off of the backs of struggling Piedmont residents.

    • Ant says:

      Truthfully i would not go that far. If the city offers it any business would be fool not to take it. As far as the Simpsons it is the same thing. It was offered so the were able to benifet. The whole issue is how the city and mayor went about it. I may not agree with Johns presentation or views but i understand it.

      • JT says:

        Keynesian BS is still BS no matter how you dress it up. I can get a bunch of people to say we need all kinds of businesses. The city can just offer them tax incentives for everyone. Where does it stop? By the time the incentives are done so is the damage and the politicians and so called smart people who dreamed it all up are long gone.

    • john says:

      Like I said there were four other options for Williams to go on his land purchase for his grocery store. The Tiff was already in discussion way before my family entered the picture. Again like I said no grocery store Buy for less, Williams or any others was going to invest in Piedmont without the incentive. And Mr Williams did spend about 4.7 million dollars out of pocket expense and is being rebated 3 cents of the 5 collected bsck to him for a partial reimbursement back as a incentive to invest in Piedmont. I can tell you were a poor student on school for recent snd current events.

      • JT says:

        I can tell your understanding of sound economic theory is severely clouded by the money you received in the grocery store deal.

  90. Concerned says:

    Williams was a bad deal for Piedmont and will be for the next 20 years. Private business sucking the taxpayers dry is worse then what Mr. Stout did. John can spin this anyway he wants and polish this soldiers helmet till it gleams in the sun and it’s still coporate greed at it’s worst. If this project was economically viable then Mr. Williams shouldn’t have had any problems with investing his own money. Sadly most Piedmont residents don’t shop there. Williams prices are just too high.

    • JT says:

      Exactly. If there was a market for a grocery store someone would have built one. People wanted a grocery store, but they didn’t want to spend their own money. Someone wanted to build a grocery store, but he didn’t want to spend 100% of the cost. Politicians wanted to get credit for bringing a grocery store, so they used other people’s money to do it. It’s pretty easy to spend other people’s money.

  91. john says:

    Well concerned since most people don’t prescribe to your juvenile attempt to discuss current issues and rewriting of the past events in Piedmont, it Is very obvious on who you support. That is your right and I am happy for you. So since you like to hide behind a fake name then you must have something to hide too and you must have loved the the secret campaign that was waged by PB as the chairmen of a better Piedmont as that is now being litigated in courts. I am sure you loved the full page ads that were taken out by the ex president and the executive officer of the chamber of Piedmont before they had to resign out of their own disgrace and self inflicted wounds. Now your very dear friend Mr stout who was the treasurer of the current mayor and her campaign as she has links to the secret campaign by PB as it appears now. And .let’s not forget your very dear friend accidentally got caught with his britches down to his knees. Now I ask you how is that BS going to promote this town for future commercial development. It doesn’t and it will never if that kind of crap continues. There is a reason why those other businesses did’nt locate out here that PB was stating he had coming out with his Pud proposal and Tiff district. Who would want to come out here after the BS on settling the contract with Williams after 2 years of your bosses objections.. So you keep not so good company. You may want to change the company you keep.

    • Cindy says:

      John, I wasn’t asked to resign from the Chamber. I resigned on my OWN ACCORD. The next time you slander me with that accusation, you will be sued. That is a lie and you are liable for making a false statement. Hope this is simple enough for you to understand. Filing fees are cheap.

    • Cindy says:

      John, I wasn’t asked to resign from the Chamber. I resigned on my OWN ACCORD. The next time you slander me with that accusation, you will be sued.

  92. JT says:

    John do you really expect anyone to think you are an unbiased observer? You received money when you sold the land for the new grocery store. It’s absurd to read your justifications for why things were done the way they were when you had a special interest in them.

  93. john says:

    JT I have never claimed that I was free of bias and it is very obvious that you have a bias streak in your writings and overall take in this matter. I am just pointing out the depths of the BS that your friends you are so fond of and how they have tarnished this towns image. That is my opinion.

    • Ant says:

      Opinions vary

    • JT says:

      You really crack me up. You act like you deeply care about the town and it’s so called image. You don’t even live here. Your interest is purely financial and will end when you don’t own any more property here.

      • john says:

        JT you crack me up because you seem you don’t care.. you crack me up that you embrace dirty politics, you crack me up that you endosorse the past tactics of the former chamber president and the executive director that resigned from their disgraceful actions. Crack me up is the wrong words to describe this situation, the more appropriate word is “disappointing”. And yes I take pride from where I was raised and went to school for all twelve years of public school. I am proud that my family has deep roots in a community that I call home. I am proud that my family has been in the community for four generations. That is why I spend quite a bit of free time and work with a great civic group called the Piedmont Historical Society to help of what I can do to preserve the rich history of Piedmont by donating my time and working on fund raising efforts.. I also serve as VP of that great group.

        • john says:

          JT, yearly membership is only $10 per year. Lifetime membership is $100 for the Piedmont Historical Society. We are still selling brick pavers for our phase II east side sidewalk project for $50 in downtown Piedmont.. Maybe you would like to honor your family with your family name and commemorate your residence of Piedmont. The donation is 100% tax deductible.

        • JT says:

          I care enough to call out stupid actions by so called leaders. I don’t care enough to get involved in local politics because it’s too much trouble and nothing good will come of it. I watched my father toil away as a child on local politics and he got more grief and trouble than anything else.

          Yes your so proud of your heritage that you’re selling off land that has been in the family for 90 years???? Bizarre.

          I embrace the actions of who? Now you are just putting words in my mouth. Unfortunately, politics always has been and always will be a dirty game. Boevers waged his mud slinging campaign thru fliers in the mail and the newspaper. Fina used social media and blog postings to wage his. Both resulted in lawsuits.

          It’s your turn John. Make up some more ridiculous accusations or something else about me. Funny thing is, you wouldn’t know me if you saw me, but yet you act like you know all about me.

          • Ant says:

            Wow very well said. John forgot that he was/is still involved in the social media blitz. But i guess his stance is those he was/is against deserved/deserves it.

          • john says:

            You act like you know me and my family better than I do and you say that I would not know you but you still make outrageous comments that you know my family. You know sh*t that’s bout it… that’s humorous, and the land that is listed for sale is not every acre we own in Piedmont. I will make a wager when were both dead and forgotten there will still be members of my family residing in Piedmont and they will still be property owners.

          • Concerned says:

            John, doesn’t your step-mother actually own the majority of the land since Gooder took you out of the will?

    • Concerned says:

      John, if your soooooooo fond of Piedmont as you claim why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and buy a house inside Piedmont City Limits? As it is you’re nothing more then a moneygrubbing carpetbagger.

  94. john says:

    Yes Ant opinions vary and I am not afraid to express them with my name associated with those comments so why are you such a coward?

    • Ant says:

      why should you be afraid. The comments i have seen from the three of us have just been debating the facts. I have not seen the 5th grade name calling from any of us that you perscribe to. Typically when the name calling starts it is because there is not any defense of claims made. I believe anybody reading this mess has a little better understanding of both sides of the issue. I will let them decide what is the truth.

      • john says:

        Ant, why do you think I am afraid I asked what are you are afraid of??? I have no fears of my name being published but you sure do.. Your the one hiding behind an alias name. That is very telling of you as you must have something to hide or your afraid you will lose credibility once your identity is confirmed. Thats ok and I think you need to take a look at your own posts and fifth grade comments as well……. I have and your post and comments on labeling people has not been very kind so that goes on both of us. But yet again you are hit and run artist. You can’t or won’t stamp your name to to your comments because again you are afraid……, again I will let the readers decide who is telling the truth and who is full of crap.

        • Ant says:

          What name have i ever called you?? When have i strayed from the topic?? You have a very strange way of looking at others opinions, where is your open mind?? I have just stated facts as i see them. When you make blanket statements that are not accurate or when i believe are not totally forthcoming i call you out. More often than not you change the subject or spout off that you have proof (but you do not share it). Alot of the time you just say you have better things to do and just disappear. By your comments above about your decendants still being here when the rest of us are gone just clarifys you believe you are better that the rest of us.

          • john says:

            Ant, there you go again if your not proud of your family and your embarrassed. that’s your business, I have never attacked your family, like you have attacked mine… Remember your a figment of everybodys imagination because you hide snd slither. I will pray for you.

          • JT says:

            John your reply is not even coherent.

          • Ant says:

            That is why i left it alone. I have never attacked johns family. The problem with john is, his only defense is personal attacks. He cannot debate the facts without name calling and then he adds he will pray for you. If his positiin was so defensible he would not have to deflect to the off topic negativity

  95. john says:

    Hello yellow stain. Thought you went away.

  96. Ron Hau says:

    Hey “ant” do you really think having multiple signs in your yard makes you louder? Stupid is as stupid does.

  97. john says:

    Ron now their going to say the Ron and John show is back on I think we need to sit back and let the Concerned, Ant and JT complete their own encore show. I always enjoyed the,Three stooges anyway.

  98. john says:

    JT, Please read your post from July 24 th at time stamped 2:23pm you say and I quote… “How much sales tax does the Myriad Gardens produce? That is a city park”. You were arguing about the uses of TIF district’s but you brought it up now take a look at today’s business section of The Daily Oklahoman. The headline reads…. Myriad Botanical Gardens serves up two new eateries. The TIF money certainly was used for tax generated businesses as well as destination sites for tourism to both promote downtown as well as provide affordable eating establishments for the high concentration of employment centers with all the worker bees that makes up the work force for various companies downtown. So I may have overstated never for residential use of TIFFs but you have yet to provide good comparable to the very flawed Town central Pud that was voted down years ago here in Piedmont. So basically your argument has collapsed on it self till you can provide a comparable TIFF district for the same uses. And your other example for La Rosa again is not comparable as that was a reclamation project and an open dirt field does not compare to that project.

    • JT says:

      I never ever compared any project to any project. I simply was pointing out that the absolute statements you were making were incorrect.

      Here is what I wrote: “So to summarize you were wrong about 1) TIF districts never paying for public improvements 2) TIF districts never paying for public improvements for residential developments and 3) the sole purpose of a TIF district being to generate increases in sales tax from commercial and large employment centers only.”

      The Devon TIF is financing the majority of Project 180. I encourage you to read up on the reason why the TIF was created in the first place. You will find that Larry Nichols wanted to spruce up downtown to match his new $750 million 50 story tower. The Myriad Gardens are right across the street.

      You wrote that the SOLE purpose of a TIF was to generate increases in sales tax. That was an incorrect statement.

      You wrote that TIFs NEVER pay for public improvements, then you backtracked and said they NEVER pay for public improvements for residential developments. Again both of those statements were wrong.

      I don’t care about the Town Center PUD or why it was voted down. I just know that a government subsidized grocery store is wrong, plain and simple.

  99. john says:

    The Tiff mentioned in downtown OKC as part of the Devon tower project also coincided with the project 180 program to revitalize that area of the Botanical gardens.

    • JT says:

      The project 180 program was originally solely funded by the TIF. The architect from Houston went crazy and the costs skyrocketed. They had to bring in some bond money and scale back things a bit.

  100. john says:

    I agree with every thing you have said on your recent posts but you were implying that no sales tax was going to be generated out of the Botanical gardens and I proved that statement was incorrect. And you made another comment as you stated you were not sure of why the Town Central PUD was voted down so I was asking for you to provide a comparable to that flawed PUD with a similar TIFF district and you have not yet. That’s all I am saying. And if you have not read the failed Town Central PUD proposal than how can you compare it to TIFF districts in downtown OKC.

  101. john says:

    Correction almost everything you have said

  102. JT says:

    I’m not comparing the Town Central PUD to any TIF. I just used the examples of the OKC TIFs to show that the statements you made weren’t correct.

    A PUD is just a Planned Unit Development. It may have been fine plan, but it got mixed in with a bunch of other stuff to finance a grocery store. Just because the original plan put forth was bad doesn’t make the plan that was approved any better.

    I’ll say it again. A government subsidized grocery store is a horrible idea. It doesn’t matter how big or small the city is that does it or what state it is in.

  103. john says:

    Are you mad bro?

  104. john says:

    But you have failed to document a Tiff district that was going to fund a project for residential development except for La Rosa which is poor example as they don’t compare.

  105. john says:

    You will find many projects funding reclamation and revitalizing of old depressed neighborhoods such as those in downtown citys. But with those projects you find extraordinary expenses on those kind of projects and there are incentives for investors to work on those projects. So again your analysis is weak and flawed all it am saying. 🙂

  106. Ant says:

    John you picking small excerpts of what JT was trying to say and taking it all out of context. You keep referring to the town center pud as flawed and failed when in actuality it failed because of the mayor and council bull dozed your site over it. You forget the legal battles that ensued and how the law kept the shady funding mayor mike tried to push through. The deal williams has today is not even close to what was pushed through finally. Very flawed and politically motivated. Your high and mighty BS is a pure shame.

  107. john says:

    Ant, since you have done a bang up job to keep your identity secret makes me wonder what and who you are, your either a realtor, the home builder in question or one of his business partners or one of the disgraced former members of the chamber. Hell Ant even when you registered to this site with the Gazette you gave a bogus email address when you registered your alias. So why the secrecy? Again no one is paying attention to you as they can read right thru your lies.

  108. ant says:

    As alwaye you cannot debate the issues so you attack the messenger. You assume since you do not know who i am and since i am aware of the whole story i must be your enemy. not true i just have an educated opinion you do not what heard. bottom line is it does not matter who i am as long as i post in a responsible manner. go back and read what is posted to see i have only tried to set the record straight. Question is does the williams deal resemble what was first voted on by the council??????????? You keep trying to hold everybody else to higher standards than you have for yourself.

  109. john says:

    You sprinkle truth, half truths and down right lies in what you say. So again why hide if you say your speaking the truth???? That’s very damming to your credibility.

  110. john says:

    Hey JT have you had a chance to find anyTiff districts that has been established in the state of Oklahoma that deals with raw land only for the development of residential property? Just curious if your search yielded any as of yet. I just want to be able to compare apple’s to apple’s on your analysis of any two projects. That’s all…..

  111. john says:

    Ant since you can provide details of the plan why don’t you play the role of the developer and do explain in details on the flawed and poorly ilconcieved Town Central PUD and TIFF request and how it compared to the Devon TIFF and the La Rosa reclamation and revitalization projects of OKC?

  112. Ant says:

    As i recall the developement was going in at the developers cost except for 170kthe that was for the city to extend water and sewer west to the civic center. The tif part was to establish a tiff district where future businesses could apply for tif funding to bring their businesses to piedmont. Each party applying for funds was subject to city approval. When you say flawed and poorly conceived it makes it very clear you did not read the entire proposal or you did not understand what you were reading. Was it perfect no, but it had the potential for massive commercial growth for the town. As with most proposals there is give and take to get to a final agreeable deal. The pud was just slammed from the beginning and stood no chance due to the powers in charge at the time. Have you ever read the entire proposal or just base your opinion on what was directed your way???

  113. john says:

    Boy you left a whole lot out Ant……

  114. john says:

    You forgot the meeting that night when Jeff Williams stated he was coming out to Piedmont regardless if the Town central Pud was passed or not. So there is more to the story.

    • Concerned says:

      Williams had no intent to come out here if he couldn’t get the city to pay for it. That whole spiel was nothing but political posturing. John, why don’t you just get a nice girlfriend, have some children, do normal stuff instead of wasting your time worrying about a town you don’t even live in?

    • Ant says:

      Bang for the buck. If the town central pud went through the city would have gained so much needed infrastructure on the north side that the sky was the limit in that area. Getting three anchor tenants was the spark that was needed for it to happen and it was less impact on the city than your deal. Missed chance. But i guess having more 5 acre lots in the center of town with nothe commercial developemnent is much better in your view

    • Ant says:

      So as a city we bowed to his desire to be here at any cost?? He said i am coming and you cant stop me so our leaders said here is our checkbook and have at it. Public funds are not susposed to be there for the taking!!!

  115. JT says:

    This discussion is pointless.

    Where’s all the news about the recall of Vern? I’m reading in Facebook comments about how he went on a rant at the candidates forum on July 30th and called a bunch of people liars.

    I’d say that would generate at least 300 comments since this has generated 199 so far.

  116. Old Timer says:

    JT: Vernon is going to win again, so everyone should get their recall petition ready and waste time going door to door again. He’s been the only one who pays attention to detail and thoroughly reads his agenda packets and speaks his mind. Holding city employees accountable is important, especially in Piedmont. You should be grateful he’s there. He’s a little rough around the edges, but doesn’t mind telling it like it is in this town. He’s probably saved the town a lot of money, keeping city spenders in line by watching what is spent, and doesn’t mind questioning those expenditures.

  117. JT says:

    Old Timer,

    Ward 2 must be a strange place. Vernon received 140 out of 205 votes cast when he was re-elected in April of 2011. The recall petition that was submitted in May of 2012 had 140 signatures. If he wins again he sure must have some fickle constituents.



  118. john says:

    Im still at s conference in Vegas what have I missed?

  119. Ant says:

    I clear point of view and understanding of business. Sorry but you asked

  120. john says:

    I see your still hiding and hungover.

  121. john says:

    Yes work and play never makes for s dull person in life. You should get out of the house sometime. I highly recommend book at the suites at the venetion resort, very nice.

  122. john says:

    Ant you mention three anchor tenants in your remarks earlier….. you mean you couldn’t do the deal of two of three anchor tenants. Where did they go how come they didn’t look elsewhere here in Piedmont? And what were the other businesses? And since the sewer you are talking about where the lift station is located up north would barely have the capacity too handle much more than those three tenants? So how much of the city was going to be on the hook $ for the rest of the sewer and water for the rest of the 291 acres of the town central Pud? I have the video of that meeting and the attorney representing the developer could not answer that when asked……if I recall he said because of the extraordinary expense of development costs of a subdivision why they were asking for tax rebates and tiff for the residential portion too.. My question to you why has the develop not moved on it now since housing has rebounded?. I always heard we need more rooftops to support new business development.?

  123. Ant says:

    The city is the one that wanted small density lots in thatthe area. Go back to 06 or 07 when the first pud was defeated and it looked like it was going to 5 acre lots. with no sewer ability it was going to take a drastic undertaking to get to do it. Again you pick and choose your facts. 3 tenants were electric car, grocery and robotic tractor.

  124. john says:

    So ninety acres was sold off for a robotic tractor assembly and electric cars dealership, the tax subsidy is no more for electric cars and where is the sales tax generated from those two enterprises? I’m not sure please enlighten me?

  125. Ant says:

    Well a crystal ball works well but the electric car deal was an assembly plant and it would still be viable as they are still building them for nationwide distribution. You miss the point of a one trick pony where the grocery is to having a chance for more

  126. john says:

    I don’t recall are they still selling electric cars down at NW highway where near timberlodge use to be?

  127. john says:

    Ant, So you were going to have manufacturing assembly plant embedded in a residential PUD where single family dwelllings are to coexist with industrial manufacturing. Now that is a cluster of you know what of planning. It would be better as 5 acre lots if that was planned for the center of your vision of town. Thank goodness the council saw thru that bull crap. Like I stated from the beginning that was ilconcieved and flawed PUD to say the least.

  128. john says:

    Ant a clear point of view is always good and the final understanding of the true plan. I’m sorry for you that you dont get it.

  129. john says:

    JT. Now I need for you to find a comparable Tiff that not just has commercial and residential development but now you need to find one with industrial zoning as well for the car assembly plant. Now would you want to live by a EZ cart assembly plant for electric cars? I guess the planners got their designs from Willy Wonkas chocalate factory so all the oompaloompas can live and work at the factory. 🙂

  130. john says:

    It now is more clear once the layers of the onion has been peeled back we have discovered that first…Ant is not as intelligent as much as he thinks he is, second JT needs to google less and read more and third….Concerned is a blooming idiot. 🙂

  131. JT says:

    Why again must I find a comparable TIF to satisfy you and defend an argument I never made?

    John facts are stubborn things. The fact is you didn’t have a clue what you were talking about. I never compared one TIF to another TIF. I simply pointed out what you said was incorrect.

    Wisdom is admitting when you were wrong and learning from it. Foolishness is…..well what you are doing now.

  132. Ant says:

    I decided to drop out of the discussion after going back and reading how Johns position kept changing everytime anybody challenged his BS. As stated before opinions will not be changed here and of everybody posting here it appears John is the only one with a financial stake. He has no option except to defend it until the end. Anybody with a business mind can see through this. Anybody who has a business mind that was not part of the grocery payday knows how far it has set the town back. Good thing is in a decade and a half or so the Williams deal will be over and Piedmont will be able to get its tax base back that has handed away for nothing more than greed and political gain. And John i do really mean this i wish you well but i do not want your hand in the citys pockets ever again. You may not like other developers (as you are one to) but at least we have not had our city tax base robbed by them

  133. john says:

    Dear Ant and JT, don’t get mad now on me. I’m sorry that your arguments are crumbling upon themselves. It will be ok for both of you. JT you didn’t realize that there was an industrial park in a housing addition?……, heck the old and new comp plan for the city does not call for manufacturing in the center of town. I see Ant does not want to talk about that now as he has further exposed his weak position of non sales tax collecting industries for the failed PUD with a assembly plant and a robotic test farm center. I wonder how many millions the town would have been on the hook for that pie in the sky development. Thinking out loud.

    • Concerned says:

      The old comp plan never called for commercial development where Williams is located at now. Comp plans are nothing that is cast in stone. They are merely suggestions. Allowing Williams to build on where it’s at, on Simpson land, is a visual blight on the future of Piedmonts commercial development. It took any hopes of a centralized business district and planted them on top of cow turds. Horrible, horrible decision by the City of Piedmont to have allowed that building to go up in that spot.

      • john says:

        Opinions vary.

      • john says:

        Concerned, The new 2030 comp plan for Piedmont reflects all along highway 4 ,as commercial property. You think it was going to be cow pasture for ever. Silly kid..

        • Concerned says:

          Ain’t gonna happen. If other businesses were going to locate in that area they would have already done so. Sales taxes are too high. Piedmont will always be a commuter community. Why pay Williams high prices and Piedmont’s high sales taxes when most residents will drive by a cheaper grocery store in OKC? Dream on big boy!!!

  134. JT says:

    Please explain how my argument is crumbling on itself? I mean please explain where you were right that TIFs never pay for public improvements in commercial or residential developments. Please show me where it is written in stone that the only purpose of TIFs is to pay for sales tax generation.

    Now remember John when you show that I’m wrong, remember to actually show how the words you used were right and the ones I used were wrong. I know this might be tough for you since you went to public schools, but I know deep down that you are capable of doing it. Now John you can’t go off on a tangent or change the subject to something from 5 weeks ago. You have to actually make a point. Oh yeah one more thing, you can’t just scream BOEVERS and then run away. You see that won’t work either.

    Really John, you remind me of Bill O’Reilly. You’re full of yourself and hot air. Or maybe you’re more like Ted Baxter, I’m not sure.

  135. john says:

    Ok, first I admitted I misstated an absolute when I said never, however I was referring to raw undeveloped land with never. I moderated my request to you for additional research to compare similar projects with Tiff districts. The ones you provided were neither similar or comparable that is my argument to you. I’m not going to compare a cheese sandwich to filet mignon and call that fair and balance to honor Bill O’Reilly. Lol

  136. john says:

    And on top of that I forgot about the industrial development as well in that failed PUD if my good friend Ant did not respill the beans on that fact. SO my arguement is stronger now.

  137. john says:

    …………Very strong!!

  138. Kate Kearby says:

    did someone say beans, the beans at the Methodist Church old folks lunch were good today.

  139. john says:

    Ant is back, hey Ant how was the city going to get income from sales tax collections from an oversized golf assembly manufacturing plant and a test center for robotic tractors/?/? JT never answered my question as the answer is there has never been Tiff districts I can find for industrial complexes here in the state of Oklahoma. Houston we have a problem here…

    • john says:

      Correction there was one I found. OKC offered General Motors a property tax rebate from their manufacturing operation but later reneged on the incentive back in 1974. That set back OKC twenty years for business development. Just like the idiots that argued against the incentive that was finally settled with Williams grocery.

  140. john says:

    Ant, How was an industrial park next to a grocery store across from the elementary school going to benefit anybody? The whole ideal of a Tiff district is to aid in the development and offset the costs with additional sales tax revenues to the city(since the city was going to be on the hook for a bigger chunk of the pie than you are saying in your comments). I only see one of the three businesses you mention that will generate sales tax for the city and that is the grocery store. Your arguement has been flawed from the very beginning and lacks real vision for the community. And for the stupid comments made by Concerned now there is a idiot. You two must compare notes before you comment to this thread.

    • Ant says:

      Not sure, could it be whatever they are manufacturing will require the purchase of materials so they can produce their products?? I am sure temtrol pays nothing to the town of Okarche. And keep in mind the car plant was an assembly plant so we are not talking about heavy industrial. If mythe memory serves me correctly the first pud was proposed before fina was mayor and it did not involve a TIF. The first pud just showed a preliminary conceptual plat and the council by splitthe vote voted it down in stead of working with the developer. Memory was fina and gage were for it and the rest voted it down. 6 months later talk of 5 acre lots was tossed around with some members of council wanting the original concept back. Next time up fina was mayor and decided it could go anywhere but the pud. This is when your family lurched forward when the council voted down the pud

  141. Kate Kearby says:

    talked to someone who has a business (think it’s heat and air?) in town that has his ‘orders’ delivered to a job site in OKC so he doesn’t have to pay Piedmont sales tax, Pays a min wage employee to haul stuff to him, he says over a years time it saves him about $40,000 even still? Wonder if that is correct?

  142. Kate Kearby says:

    which reminds me don’t builders and craftsmen pay sales tax to Piedmont of materials delivered to job sites here?
    I’m just a dumb ignorant woman trying to find Piedmont pride and assets to grow right with good roads? Anyone want to come help with the Piedmont Traditional 4H project? Meeting at the Library for organization August 15 , 6:30pm.

  143. john says:

    I just love the word lurch Ant since my family entered the discussion and negotiated with Mr Williams after the PUD was rejected by the city, but why did PB not sale the land to Mr Williams as he had the contract and he still could of had the grocery store on his land. Jeff Williams said he was coming out here and he would of gladly built across from the school because that was his choice over my family’s site but your business partner tore up the contract cause he got mad like a baby .. Ant if you lost money with your business partner that’s your problem not mine and that would explain your bitterness towards me and my family . BTW temtrol employs over 440 team members covering all the shifts so the economic impact is quite significant for Okarche. But I’m.confused ……. Ant you were preaching earlier how the three anchor tenants that was going to be the best thing next to slice bread. Now……You say you think ….. I’m not sure. For months you have preaching on your high and mighty horse on how the Town Central PUD was the only hope for Piedmonts future now your not sure how the city was supposed to recoup the investment in the sewer and water infrastructure for that development with the Tiff requests and so forth. In other words you really have no clue what your talking about. Concerned is a idiot but your running a very close second.

  144. ant says:

    sarcasim went right by you. mr williams could not build on that site without water and sewer. the contract was contingent on the pud being approved, it was not so the tearing up you refer to is not an accurate view. but as always you just tell parts of the story that shows your bias.

  145. john says:

    Your wrong Ant as the building site in question that PB was in contract was that the seller(PB) was required to provide sewer and water access to that site, again the PUD was independant from the provisions of the contract. So it sounds like the developer had no intentions on investing any money into the infrastructure, the developer only wanted the city to pick up the tab. Your business partner should have tried to work with the city on an alternate solution as he had the contract instead of throwing a temper tantrum.. I see you are still clueless on how the city was going to recoup any investment from a golf cart assembly plant and robotic tractors as part of the TIFF and we all see you still like to talk out of both of your ends. You just passed concerned for first place. Sorry but your backside is exposed.

  146. ant says:

    That is your problem, you cannot debate the issue without name calling and trying to goad someone into a verbal fight. The issue is the same now as it was 6 or 7 years ago and your attempts to put everybody else down to make yourself look better are still the same. I have always took the position that the best way to promote yourself is to promote yourself and not at the expense of others. Your main way of defending the grocery deal on your property is to try and make everything else out to be sinister and underhanded. At the end of the day show us all how the Williams Grocery is a benefit to the city of Piedmont and then you can win your argument. Until then quit trying to be the saint of Piedmont that you wish you are.

  147. john says:

    Ant my dear friend I’m not goading you. I just want you to bsck up your claims, because your the one who has something to hide. Your the one with all the secrecy and lies hiding behind alias and cover from others.. You will do your harden heart a lot of good by being honest and release your anger towards me and my family as well as a member of our business community with Williams Grocery. I am not sure what your problem is however it maybe mental so take care of your self.

  148. JT says:

    John I want you to know that I apologized to Mr. O’Reilly for comparing you to him. He has accepted my apology and sent me a signed copy of his latest book, an autographed picture and a Factor t-shirt.

    I’ve come to the following conclusion after reflecting on your posts. You think that you have some kind of status because of your family’s history, and you appear to think that you singlehandedly brought the greatest thing to Piedmont in the last 100 years, Williams grocery store.

    After reading Ant’s post it hit me. You’re no O’Reilly. Rather you’re more like Anthony Weiner. You are a legend in your own mind with delusional thoughts of self grandeur.

    • john says:

      JT, no I just have no use for liars and people who hide and spout off misstatements of the facts that don’come forward with their true identity. If you have a problem with that turn the computer off.

  149. ant says:

    i am not trying to make this about whose side anybody is on. I just firmly believe in the rush to squash the town center project a deal was made that severly hurt OUR city. In that process the town has been split and those responsible have been gloating about it ever since. If you do not agree with them you must be a business partner of PB or an idiot. if you talk around town the majority of people don’t like either side but feel the city as a whole got screwed. my personal belief is the majority of the city tax base is due to PB’s efforts and he has been slammed for his success. was town center perfect? no. was it a workable base that had more potential for less outlay from the city? yes. all the simpson deal did was pay an outsider to come collect our rightfully due tax base. all the rest is BS

  150. john says:

    Ant, I can tell your getting agitated but the Town Central PUD had ample time for review from the planning commission to the city council over many reviews by the city. So it was not bulldozed as it had it’s day and review. So what are you really mad about?

  151. Ant says:

    So you are saying the planning commision reccomended it to council or not?

  152. john says:

    Ant I didn’t say. I am saying the Town Central PUD had its fair and open hearings with the city. However if my memory serves me well, the planning commission voted for it by simple majority but the city council voted it down by a 3 to 2 vote with one of the votes coming from PB’s business partner former councilman Hoss Cooley. PB was the managing partner of SBS development petitioning the city for approval for the PUD and TIFF district. Hoss Cooley was and is an active business partner with other endeavours.

  153. john says:

    And in my opinion former councilman Hoss Cooley should have abstained from voting as his business partner from other dealings was voting on a vote to award public financing in the form of Tax incremental financing again to his business partner.

  154. Ant says:

    Hoss was not on council then. Donnie was mayor, council was brown, larry, fina, and the lady i do not recall her name.

    • john says:

      Ant, Larry Gage was not on the council when Jodi Lewis served on the council as Jodi defeated Larry in her only election to the council before she moved out of Piedmont about the same time her term was up so than Larry Gage ran again and defeated Eidsen in that election 3.5 years ago. You have gotten your votes, times and councilman all confused. Makes me curious what else is not quite right that has been said..

  155. Ant says:

    Lewis i think and we were 1doing short. I think when banta resigned

    • john says:

      PB’s business partner former councilman Hoss Cooley voted to award public funds in the form of Tax incremental financing on the final PUD and TIF vote just prior to PB tearing up the conteact. That is when my family was sought for a possible site for the grocery store. So you are talking about the other flawed proposal by the developer Ant.

  156. mildly interested says:

    So who was for the grocery store incentive before they were against it? I’m also curious about some business interest who wants to come to Piedmont in the future. I would expect the same old stuff. Only those who will work with the right local folks will be treated fairly. Give Jeff Williams the credit he deserves, he stuck it out in spite of the insults, lawsuits and who knows what else. He built a great grocery store in Piedmont City limits and collects the sales tax. No doubt any one else who would have been interested will not be influenced in a favorable way. SOSDD

  157. john says:

    Mildly Interested, that is a great comment you made…… who were all the ones screaming for the tax incentive for Williams as long as PB was getting it on his land but when he failed to get the necessary votes from the city. Then those same people namely Concerned and Ant fault tooth and nail on finishing the contract as it was finally completed two years later. And if I remember all the sales tax collected those first months when the grocery store open the city did not set that money back and Mr Williams did not require back payment when the deal finally was ratified.

  158. ant says:

    now i get it john you started the clock when your family got involved, but the problem is the then city manager and council had been changing the rules on the pud for at least 2 to 3 years prior. that is why all of the bad blood over this. the political manuvering for at least 2 years prior to your involvment all in an effort to shut down the pud was basically a personal vendetta against PB by the then city manager and mayor. bottom line was you had no opposition by the mayor, city manager or 2/3rds of the council so the Williams deal was never vetted like the pud was. now you want to make it out like the only reason you got the deal was because your deal was so great. you had a stacked deck and the final deal does not even resemble what was originally approved by the split council. the court battles showed the deal was not valid and it had to be changed how many times before another stacked council finnaly approved it. even then it was still a bad deal for Piedmont. show us what benefit the city is reaping??

  159. john says:

    I was not part of the application of Phil Boevers PUD so that has nothing to do with me and my family but since you were not getting your facts right I felt it was my obligation to correct you yet once again. Again you are making pointless accusations about that council and what proof do you have offer us of rule changes. They can’t rewrite the ordinances in mid stream to screw a home builder.

  160. john says:

    So the personal vendetta you talk about does that have anything with the court case that is being litigated in the courts of the nasty, suspicious campaign waged by your friend PB and his errand boy?

    • Concerned says:

      John, you know the truth and so do a lot of the rest of us. It goes back to land deal between your dad, Gooder Simpson and Phil Boevers. That’s where the vendetta comes from. Maybe you could fill the newcomers in on the back story. From the looks of things Phil has done very good for himself and made far more financial contributions to the community then you ever have. Plus, Phil lives here, in Piedmont, he’s not a carpetbagger like some others.

  161. ant says:

    no just pointing out there is more history there than you care to share. i never said anything about rewriting rules. the votes by council are based on opinion and not the merits of the project. my point is you had PB working over a period of several years at an untold expense revising the pud to try and accomodate a council that was stringing it out to try and kill the deal. in the meantime williams jumped ship to your land and you want to say it was because he had a bad plan. that pud changed shape many times trying to get the stacked council satisfied and the problem was there was no way they were going to accept it. that is just a plain fact you wish to ignore.

  162. john says:

    I don’t agree, it a case where a grown man was told no for the first time and he thru temper tantrum and drug the town in the mud and he is now got himself in a piclkle involved in litigation. Sounds like a personal problem to.me Ant, you need to take care of it yourself.

  163. ant says:

    did not think you would agree but this whole deal is not as cut and dried as you wish everyone to believe. where do you get off saying he has never been told no?? one thing is pure fact PB did not come from money or did his family leave him anything. everything he has achieved was from hard work and dedication to this town. he was not left a golden spoon as you thought you were before you had to sue for what your parents built. you inherited every inch of land you now have.

  164. john says:

    Ant, Like I said I don’t agree with most of what you have said as your trying to change the past events to suit your self centered views. But what would I expect from you as I didn’t expect anything different, a POS that hides and slithers, sorry. You like to rewrite history of what really transpired on how the grocery store came to be and your probably one of the ones that aided in the campaign on killing any deal after PB lost his bid for it. This is when you Ant used the nuclear option if PB wasn’t going to get the deal no one was. But that is ok, the town percivered despite your antics and the town was set back not by the grocery store but by you and your so called pillars of the community. It’s time to move on and work for the betterment of the community to make it the best suburb in the OKC metro. If you dont want to play fair and above board on the future of this town, than the city will have no use for you as I won’t either. I’m done taking to a person who won’t identify who is as she/he hides. Stay hidden from now on…. the town will be better off without you! Good day and good bye.

  165. Ant says:

    I hope that means you are done here and will shut up

  166. john says:

    You need to dry up and go away. Your nothing but one blighted sore to this town. Bye bye..

  167. Ant says:

    Oh i thought blighted was what your land was. I guess i hit a sore spot with how you got your land and your silver spoon analogy about PB

  168. john says:

    Oh my dear friend Ant, that doesnt bother me a bit… your just pissed as you will have no control and nothing to do with what develops and what goes on south of town and that just kills you. And if concerned is right that nothing will go south of town for awhile then north and east along Edmond road will be only be five acre tracts as that is dead for commercial development for a long time coming. 🙂

  169. john says:

    My opinion of course on that prediction.

    • ant says:

      and if that happens then your scheme has worked. you have to then ask is that is what is best for Piedmont and not just the simpsons.

  170. john says:

    No plots no schemes and no hidden agenda, it was just how it fell. But I do have a little smile just having the satisfaction that you Ant will have no say and nothing to do with what goes on. Hope you can you deal with that personally cause your ego sure can’t handle it. And do keep on hiding as your just an old “has been” or if you were someone credible than you would announce to all who you are but in reality you hide in the dark and spout off your true ignorance.. and for the future health and success of all developers who are already here and who want to build out here as we need more builders and developers to create competition and excellence in all quality construction here in Piedmont for the future success of Piedmont, its citizens and its continued healthy growth for business development.

    • ant says:

      I never had any say in what was going on to begin with. Since Williams opened the only healthy growth for Piedmont has been Stones hardware and he did it without any help from the city. When you say no plots, schemes or hidden agendas you are really living a fantasy and that is very evident in your posts. I (like many in this town) realize what your goals are and why. To say it is for the good of Piedmont is not even close to reality and you have a group of followers that do not have a clue as to how your group has used them and convinced them your just a poor farm boy who is really looking out for them as you sell off your inheritance. I am just calling it as i see it and have no anger or otherwise for you. Good luck in the future.

  171. john says:

    Ant, don’t get frosty on me now……….. just because you maybe deal in backhanded deals and definitely hide in secrecy does not mean we all describe to lack of ethics and moral judgement. Liars, cheats cattle thieves water thieves and horse thiefs and golddiggers I detest.

  172. john says:

    Ant, like you said no opinions are going to change here especiislly the other idiots that post here that have no clue of what their talking about or they are simply jealous. Can’t control what they feel and really dont care because their the ones with the issues and have no real substance to this discussion. Again this story was about a disgraced man got caught with his britches down to his knees as he is one of few of the same group that has fallen from grace as well some of the same individuals that post on this very thread. The other disgraced “town tattler” waddled out with a big load and left town, now the main man and his errand boy got themselves in a butt crack with litigation. Now that is just funny.

    • Ant says:

      Since you said “other idiots” i guess your giving some credit to my position on the events. I am sure some have been disgraced like Jay and others are just plain disgusted and tired of the illogical points of view.

    • Cindy says:

      I suppose you are referring to me “waddling out” of Piedmont. You know John, I have lupus, arthritis and degenerative back disease. Yes I do waddle. I didn’t sue my father however because I felt like I didn’t get my share of his will. Had I done so, he would have left me nothing. Until the various lawsuits are over, you really need to watch what you say. This very blog may end up in a courtroom at some very near future with you on the defendants seat. Besides handicapped folks, and those that don’t believe you, is there anyone else you care to insult?

      • john says:

        Cindy I’m sorry for your ailments. That must be tough. And by the way expressing opinions is protected speech. What kind of republican are you?

        • Cindy says:

          Opinions ARE protected. Repeatedly putting out mis-information when you have been given facts is not an opinion. That is a lie, that is liable, and malicious intent is corrupt. You cannot be prosecuted in this great country for opinions. You CAN be prosecuted for printed lies used with malicious intent. In the end, persecution will be given you by our Lord and Saviour. In the mean time John, you need to watch your mouth. On second thought…..you will reap what you sow. So sayeth The Lord.

        • Cindy says:

          Opinions ARE protected by law . Repeatedly putting out mis-information when you have been given facts is not an opinion. That is a lie, that is liable, and malicious intent is corrupt. You cannot be prosecuted in this great country for opinions. You CAN be prosecuted for printed lies used with malicious intent. In the end, persecution will be given you by our Lord and Saviour. In the mean time John, you need to watch your mouth. On second thought…..you will reap what you sow. So sayeth The Lord.

          • john says:

            Are you repeating yourself or you think I will read it twice. Didn’t you move out of Piedmont and sale out from Piedmont??? I remember you trying to demean Brian Vermilion for his job and where he lives. If any lawsuits take place then this newspaper willl be liable for allowing people with hidden credentials and alias to spout off crap on a continuous basis.

          • Concerned says:

            Listen to Big John. Doesn’t live in Piedmont. Could if he wanted to but chooses to be a carpetbagger instead. Wow! The pot calling the kettle black. Just because you can’t find or buy a woman doesn’t mean you need to take it out on everyone else.

  173. JT says:

    Are we supposed to believe all your carnival barking on here doesn’t make you Fina’s and Williams’ errand boy?

    You said you were done talking 2 days ago, but yet you’re still talking.

  174. john says:

    Ant if I was going rank you from 1 to 10 on credibility I would have to give you a score of 3.5, ………can’t get past your premeditated actions to protect your identity by giving the Gazette a fake email for your profile with this blog. I have talked to others and they agree with my assesment if you are speaking the truth why hide in the shadows? . ……I see others who stated this is pointless discussioncstill has to tune in and chime in when we have established they argue from a lack of knowledge and lack of municipal involvement. So why bother tuning in?

  175. Ant says:

    You lost me on that one. As far as credability goes, that is hard for you to admit that i have knowledge of what the real story is. As i have always contended i believe you were a pawn in the former mayors game, but you went along because you believe there is something sinister with PB since your father had been selling him land for all those years and you could not stop it. You have had a grudge because of it and this fell right into your hands as a way for revenge. Now you are self rightous about it all as if you are the only person with a valid point. I learned long ago there are 2 sides to every thing and the truth is somewhere in between. So with that i am sure you will have some condesending response that further will show your superiority complex you are so proud of.

    • john says:

      Yes Ant you have some knowledge but far from all the facts so why are you so mad with me and my family and why are you so deceitful? And if you say you are speaking from first hand knowledge and you state your such an authority. Then I have to ask yet again why hide? . Again I know for a fact that if your identity was disclosed you are afraid of losing credibility because of who you are and to what you have stated already. So yet again it all comes back to credibility and my dear friend as you are not credible and as long as you hide you won’t be………

  176. JT says:

    You have “talked to others”? Really? Why don’t you name names since you’re so proud of stating everyone’s names? According to your logic, if you don’t name these “others” you have something to hide. Or was that just a straw man argument?

    Who is the we in “we have established”? Come now John no more secrets, I know you wouldn’t lie now would you? Furthermore, what have you established, except Ant’s aforementioned superiority complex.

  177. ant says:

    bobby wins!!! maybe vernon will go away to never be heard from again.

  178. john says:

    Congrats to Bobby and wish him good luck.., for the the people of that ward that voted solely on the wind mills as their motivation for change, I hate to remind them that the windmills they valiantly fault against are going to begin construction before year end as Apex will have no choice now as they have to begin construction to take advantage of the tax credit this year to qualify. The surveyors have been busy staking where they will begin and it will expand in the unincorporated limits of the county unfortunately as there is zero protection from the setbacks. 1,000 feet is the set back to comply with the law..

    • Concerned says:

      Nobody voted based only on the windmill issue. Vernon has real anger management issues. Once people started going to the city council meetings they saw what a petulant child he really is. That baby needed to be thrown out with the bath water the first time he was elected. I don’t think anyone will miss his rants and Piedmont will be better off for it.

    • Richard Jones says:

      Full-Contact Chess for the Future of Piedmont.


      John, My Friend – I respectfully beg to differ. Unfortunately, there are no Laws specifically regulating the construction of Industrial Wind Turbine complexes in The State of Oklahoma – Siting, Setback, Noise, or otherwise. This is a problem, and is why we find ourselves in this place at this time. Like you, ant, Moses, and the Children of Israel with respect to grocery stores and incentive programs with funny-sounding names (the story line of which I have admittedly been unable to follow), I have more than a passing interest when it comes to the subject of Industrial Wind Turbines.

      ant, My Friend – Have you had the opportunity to catch any National League games this season? I have been told that the view from the seats beyond the upper deck of one mid-western stadium is a really good one.

      As a guy, I find it oddly unsettling that I choose to insert myself into a public personal exchange between three guys commenting on a news story concerning a public personal exchange between two guys. There has got to be other stories we could be doing this on.

  179. mildly interested says:

    Does copra expect Bobby to stop the windmills?

    • Richard Jones says:

      If this is a question for me, I really can’t say. I don’t speak for COPRA. I posted nothing in support of a specific candidate in this election, could not vote in it, never even saw the recall petition, and did not sign it. My observations are my own. I was merely pointing out to John the utter lack of regulation concerning the Wind Energy Industry here in The State of Oklahoma.

      That being said, I believe the voters of Ward 2 had a myriad of reasons for casting their votes the way that they did. It would seem that those closest to the western boundary would be more concerned with Industrial Wind Turbines, and Mr. Woods’ Total Lack Of Cooperation with their efforts. Those nearer Piedmont Road were probably less likely to be concerned along those lines. Their issue may well have been representation, reputation, or roads.
      There was most likely a bit of overlap.

      John has kindly explained to us that nothing will stop this juggernaut that is approaching the western edge of town. I respect his right to hold that opinion.

      I’m just havin’ a little light-hearted fun with both John and ant, and I think they know this. I suspect the “ant” thing probably got John’s attention, however I am sure ant is aware that honor prevents me from exposing him any further than in the intentionally obscure manner that I already have. At least I hope it was obscure. I’ve met a lot of new people over the past year. “Leave the gun, take the cannoli”.

      I’m outta here.

      • ant says:

        Richard, kinda cloak and dagger don’t you think?? I wish baseball was the only thing we as a city needed to worry about. with all that has been said up to now, i am outa here to,

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